"My Views on Socializing" Part 2
What I have seen
Being owner and operator of a window cleaning business, and cleaning residential homes. I usually clean the interior windows, while my business partner cleans the exterior windows. I love people and I get a chance to chat and work at the same time. Sometimes they follow me from room to room while we are talking. A while back, in a Wednesday men's group from my church, I discuss what things I see sometimes, in people's homes that appall me. I can't believe some of the things I have seen in professing Christian homes. One time, I needed to use the bathroom. So I go to the restroom and I am about to relive myself when I look down and see a magazine. I saw an immodest dress gal on the cover, and thought to myself, and said out loud, man! Another immodest dress gal. I thought it was a "Cosmopolitan " magazine or something like it. But than I saw the title at it was a "Playboy" magazine. What do you think I did? I ran and fled to another bathroom. I could not believe it. I kept saying to myself; what a fool. I was thinking of the husband and father of the home. What a fool to destroy the home, not love his wife, not protect his wife and children. What is he thinking, or not thinking. I know I have to be careful with the word fool. Jesus had some strong words about calling your brother fool. I have in other homes seen all kinds of posters and pictures. What is really disheartening is seeing the girls rooms full of pictures of immodest, non-feminine appealing gals that they want to imitate. And raunchy indecent music blaring. My heart saddens, then I think where is the father? Does he even care? In the past year I come home complaining to my roommate, where are the men? How can fathers idly stand bye while the world dictate the thoughts and actions of their precious sons and daughters? We live in a feminized world, where most of the men seem like cowards.
I have cleaned windows of families of my home church and it has been, an all together different experience. Just a sweet aroma, of fostering godliness and holiness. But even in my home church , (this might get me into trouble), the ladies seem to me a bit stronger than the men in leadership in the home, and in understanding and appreciating good theology. Maybe I am wrong. Two Sundays ago a sweet kind older married lady came up to me and asked me a theological question "what is covenant theology". She was directed to me by someone else. It was a good question. I enjoyed answering her question. But afterward I thought perhaps, it would of been better and wiser for me to tell her in a tender kind way, to go ask her husband. (1 Cor 14:35) So if he knew the answer great, if not perhaps it would provoke him to learn, and therefore grow in understanding. And her to grow in respect toward her husband.
Lord willing if I am ever married, I will not be ruling and reigning with an iron fist, but with God's grace of enablement I will lead. We men need to be men, isn't that profound? A month ago I asked a friend if he could think of any TV shows from the past to the present, that put Fathers in a good light. That Fathers were leaders, not pansies, not viewed as buffoons, not knowing what is going on in the house. Can you think of any? Not many come to mind? Perhaps Charles Ingalls, any others?
Courting or Dating?
As a child life can seem pretty big and scary at times. Yet life as a child is usually quite simple. Mom and dad support you; they give you a place to live; they make most of the decisions, and help you make the others. But as an adult, life can be so more complex. When it comes to relational stuff, there are many competing views. I have a truck load of relational books, most of them I have read. And it can quite confusing at times. There is Joshua Harris's famous book "I kissed Dating Goodbye", he promotes group activities. Then there is Joshua Harris's follow up book "Boy Meets Girl", where he talks about meeting, and courting Shannon. He pursued her outside of a group setting. He notice her godly character and asked her out alone, to a bagel shop, if I recall correctly. And he used the "m" word ( marriage), right then and there. So they began courting with the intent of possibly marriage. Then we have Jeramy Clark's book "I gave Dating a Chance", which pretty much speaks for it's self. Doug Wilson's book "Reforming Marriage", and " Federal husband", promotes guys to approach the Father of the girl interested in, not necessarily the girl herself, since she is in most cases under her father's headship. So what's a guy to do? Do the scriptures, which is our only rule of faith and practice tell us men, what way we ought to do about this whole boy girl thing? Well, actually the bible does not have much to say on this matter. Sure there is wisdom to be obtained in these extrabiblical books, and good godly counsel. But primarily we need to walk in the Spirit, trusting in God's providence. Which in some sense can be a bit challenging, since we need to walk by faith and not by sight. Yet, at times, what do we men do with what seems like coincidences, are they the providential hand of God, or are we reading into them? This is where prayer is vital, and deep intimacy with God grows profoundly. Every situation is different, that is why there is no biblical manual on this subject. This causes us to have to lean heavy on God, and to trust him fully.
Group activities
I think group activities are great. Before attending the church I now attend, I went to a "mega Church", a very large Church of 4,000 or so people. I attended this Church almost everyday of the week. I worked at this Church. They had a coffee house called "The Solid Rock", I practically lived at this Church working on Sundays even sometimes for 16 hours. It was not hard work, I was just a barrista guy. I enjoyed the job, I got to spend lots of time with people and talking to them. I organized get together often. I organized a Christmas caroling group, and we headed out to rest homes, retirement homes, and the shut inns. And a Christmas party afterwards. I organized hiking expeditions, and various activities. My point is to say I got burnt out on being an activities director myself. Trying to get people motivated and staying motivated can be hard work. Being so social can put a damper on focusing on Spiritual disciplines like the basics- prayer and the word. I also saw girls flirting with all the guys, and vice versa. A lot of the girls seemed to like all the attention of the guys, and were competing over it. All that makes me sick. Proverbs 31:11a. Reads " The heart of her husband safely trusts her"...I think gals can prepare and begin this quality of virtue by guarding their heart not to indulge in the desire for attention from each and every guy. Therefore they will seek to please God, and desire a godly man who is faithful and will not play games neither.
Like always I have so much more to say, so I think I will save it for part 3.
Being owner and operator of a window cleaning business, and cleaning residential homes. I usually clean the interior windows, while my business partner cleans the exterior windows. I love people and I get a chance to chat and work at the same time. Sometimes they follow me from room to room while we are talking. A while back, in a Wednesday men's group from my church, I discuss what things I see sometimes, in people's homes that appall me. I can't believe some of the things I have seen in professing Christian homes. One time, I needed to use the bathroom. So I go to the restroom and I am about to relive myself when I look down and see a magazine. I saw an immodest dress gal on the cover, and thought to myself, and said out loud, man! Another immodest dress gal. I thought it was a "Cosmopolitan " magazine or something like it. But than I saw the title at it was a "Playboy" magazine. What do you think I did? I ran and fled to another bathroom. I could not believe it. I kept saying to myself; what a fool. I was thinking of the husband and father of the home. What a fool to destroy the home, not love his wife, not protect his wife and children. What is he thinking, or not thinking. I know I have to be careful with the word fool. Jesus had some strong words about calling your brother fool. I have in other homes seen all kinds of posters and pictures. What is really disheartening is seeing the girls rooms full of pictures of immodest, non-feminine appealing gals that they want to imitate. And raunchy indecent music blaring. My heart saddens, then I think where is the father? Does he even care? In the past year I come home complaining to my roommate, where are the men? How can fathers idly stand bye while the world dictate the thoughts and actions of their precious sons and daughters? We live in a feminized world, where most of the men seem like cowards.
I have cleaned windows of families of my home church and it has been, an all together different experience. Just a sweet aroma, of fostering godliness and holiness. But even in my home church , (this might get me into trouble), the ladies seem to me a bit stronger than the men in leadership in the home, and in understanding and appreciating good theology. Maybe I am wrong. Two Sundays ago a sweet kind older married lady came up to me and asked me a theological question "what is covenant theology". She was directed to me by someone else. It was a good question. I enjoyed answering her question. But afterward I thought perhaps, it would of been better and wiser for me to tell her in a tender kind way, to go ask her husband. (1 Cor 14:35) So if he knew the answer great, if not perhaps it would provoke him to learn, and therefore grow in understanding. And her to grow in respect toward her husband.
Lord willing if I am ever married, I will not be ruling and reigning with an iron fist, but with God's grace of enablement I will lead. We men need to be men, isn't that profound? A month ago I asked a friend if he could think of any TV shows from the past to the present, that put Fathers in a good light. That Fathers were leaders, not pansies, not viewed as buffoons, not knowing what is going on in the house. Can you think of any? Not many come to mind? Perhaps Charles Ingalls, any others?
Courting or Dating?
As a child life can seem pretty big and scary at times. Yet life as a child is usually quite simple. Mom and dad support you; they give you a place to live; they make most of the decisions, and help you make the others. But as an adult, life can be so more complex. When it comes to relational stuff, there are many competing views. I have a truck load of relational books, most of them I have read. And it can quite confusing at times. There is Joshua Harris's famous book "I kissed Dating Goodbye", he promotes group activities. Then there is Joshua Harris's follow up book "Boy Meets Girl", where he talks about meeting, and courting Shannon. He pursued her outside of a group setting. He notice her godly character and asked her out alone, to a bagel shop, if I recall correctly. And he used the "m" word ( marriage), right then and there. So they began courting with the intent of possibly marriage. Then we have Jeramy Clark's book "I gave Dating a Chance", which pretty much speaks for it's self. Doug Wilson's book "Reforming Marriage", and " Federal husband", promotes guys to approach the Father of the girl interested in, not necessarily the girl herself, since she is in most cases under her father's headship. So what's a guy to do? Do the scriptures, which is our only rule of faith and practice tell us men, what way we ought to do about this whole boy girl thing? Well, actually the bible does not have much to say on this matter. Sure there is wisdom to be obtained in these extrabiblical books, and good godly counsel. But primarily we need to walk in the Spirit, trusting in God's providence. Which in some sense can be a bit challenging, since we need to walk by faith and not by sight. Yet, at times, what do we men do with what seems like coincidences, are they the providential hand of God, or are we reading into them? This is where prayer is vital, and deep intimacy with God grows profoundly. Every situation is different, that is why there is no biblical manual on this subject. This causes us to have to lean heavy on God, and to trust him fully.
Group activities
I think group activities are great. Before attending the church I now attend, I went to a "mega Church", a very large Church of 4,000 or so people. I attended this Church almost everyday of the week. I worked at this Church. They had a coffee house called "The Solid Rock", I practically lived at this Church working on Sundays even sometimes for 16 hours. It was not hard work, I was just a barrista guy. I enjoyed the job, I got to spend lots of time with people and talking to them. I organized get together often. I organized a Christmas caroling group, and we headed out to rest homes, retirement homes, and the shut inns. And a Christmas party afterwards. I organized hiking expeditions, and various activities. My point is to say I got burnt out on being an activities director myself. Trying to get people motivated and staying motivated can be hard work. Being so social can put a damper on focusing on Spiritual disciplines like the basics- prayer and the word. I also saw girls flirting with all the guys, and vice versa. A lot of the girls seemed to like all the attention of the guys, and were competing over it. All that makes me sick. Proverbs 31:11a. Reads " The heart of her husband safely trusts her"...I think gals can prepare and begin this quality of virtue by guarding their heart not to indulge in the desire for attention from each and every guy. Therefore they will seek to please God, and desire a godly man who is faithful and will not play games neither.
Like always I have so much more to say, so I think I will save it for part 3.
posted by Daniel Mann at 6:12 PM
11 Comments:
Good point on married women going to their husbands for theological (or any) questions. That seems logical to promote leadership and theological leanings in the husbands. This is not just a good idea, but one we are commanded to in Scripture.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
May God help me to encourage this kind of behavior.
ahh yes, the Mega Chruch day's.
I am reminded of my one year relationship, that's what it was. I don't remember ever hearing the term courtship. We were just told to be like Adam and go to sleep. While we were in Mexico together everyone knew we were in a relatinship and very close to engagement. Yet almost all thirty of the guyes in the so called School of Ministry wouldn't leave her alone. Joshua Harrises book was considered to be legalistic, as was the charge to any demand for Holiness. Well enough of that.
As far as Joshes book, I do know from the time that I spent in small groups at his church that whenver they meet with a girl one on one they let another brother know where they are meeting and how long they plan on being there so they have accontability
... The heart of her husband safely trusts her
A woman like this truly is a rare jewel who can find?
In relation to talking to women about scripture I don't have a problem with this. For example what if they are not married and in this case they are under the headship of their Father well should you not talk to them? or what if their Father/Husband isn't a Christian? This I think is where the law creeps in and I would rather go the way of Grace especially when it comes to sharing about the one thing that matters rather then trying to legislate.
HOWEVER
In every situation church/work/recreation if a woman is married and she starts wanting to confide im me or ask advise about problems or circumstances to do with her husband I instantly go quiet and try and get away as quick as possible.
If I was married and my wife decided she wanted to go to the pastor/male for councilling I would put an end to that quick smart. Even if he was 70 years old and twice as wise as everyone else. I do not think it to be a problem her going to godly women though and would encourage this.
In relation to men being men:
From my personal experience women are simply more spiritual then men as a general rule. For example I will bring up calvinism with 5 Christian guys and 5 christian girls in the room. Within about 5 minutes 2 guys are gone and in 10 minutes another 2 guys are gone leaving 1 guy and 5 girls and although the girls are getting quite emotional they still stick it out and go home and seek the Lord on it.
Yet talk about football, movies, music and I can have them laughing being loud and cracking jokes.
This is why the women are preaching and becoming pastors. It is exactly as in the days of Deborah. She said... if you let me lead this battle you know that I will get the glory it should be you doing this and sure enough they said no you do it I am a girly man and guess what... She gets the glory.
Where do you guys and girls stand on head coverings as in Corinthians?
the entire post was astounding...when it ended, i was like "noooo!" but all good things must come to an end, so better things can begin!
i can't pick a favorite out of it all - as i love all of your wisdom. however, i completely agree with the first half, about how women are so dominate in today's society.
at a church we attended for a while (a tiny church of about 85-100 people) was supported tremendously by this awesome couple. he played guitar in the church band, she helped lead children's church and the dance ministry. they had small, vital roles in other parts, as well. he seemed to be the leader and she loved him a great deal. great couple!
somehow, satan got his hand in the affairs of the husband and he's now out of church, playing in a band that he thinks is going to make him famous. thankfully, she still takes their two teens to church, but without his support. his oldest son also played in the band, and neither him nor his wife even attends anymore.
not only is that family falling apart, but the entire church is suffering! the church almost seems to be crumbling because satan was able to take the man out of one family! i'm sure there's other little things happening, too, but this appeared to be the very beginning of it all.
we need more guys like you who realize they are to be the leader and who realize they are desperately needed! so many men are passive, and too many women are dominate.
so, thanks for taking a stand! continue to encourage others to do the same!
hey daniel...i just made a post and i'd like to get your thoughts on it! i'm sure it's one of those things you studied long ago, but i'd sure like it if you'd share your wisdom and what you've found! :-)
Julianne: Thanks for quoting the verses, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35. I gave the address but did not write out the verses, due to the fact I knew the post was going to be pretty long.
Now the historical context of that particular passage is that Paul was addressing a peculiar problem at the church in Corinth, women were creating disorder during the worship service. In light of verses 29 and 32. The context is refering to prophecy and speaking in tonges. Rather than women leading, they are to be submissive to God's word. Gen 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:11-15. It appears that Paul had in mind that the evaluation of prephecy, is that women should not participate in this specific function, nor evaluate her own husbands prophecy, but go home and ask him there, not while in church.
So I do not see in a strick since, women or married women being forbidden or commanded not to ask other people or men questions. However I think it might be wise, and help promote husbands to learn, and women to respect their husbands. As I had posted.
I noticed on your blog, the subject of women writing or teaching theology. I would have no problem reading, or hearing a women teach theology. I had no problem hearing Nancy Pearcey speak. Nor did I have a problem reading her book "Total Truth". Both were full of theology. At what point would a women cross over into forbidden territory, if she is to be forbidden of doing so? Can not a mother teach her Children theology? J.Gresham Macchen's mother taught him greek and hebrew. Was he not the better for it? I do not know of any commandments that forbid women to teach nor write theology books. But the sacred scriptures do forbid women not to usurp authority over man. I hope this helpful to you.
Ana: Thanks for your post. I am just mow getting around to writing back from people's comments. I think it is more fun for some reason to write on other people's blogs rather than my own. I don't know why. But I better respond back, since I have small readership as it is. Yes, you gals love the attention you gals can get. Thanks to you and Julianne for praying about such matters. May God continue to grant you much wisdom, in all matters of life.
Carson:You said "As far as Joshes book, I do know from the time that I spent in small groups at his church that whenver they meet with a girl one on one they let another brother know where they are meeting and how long they plan on being there so they have accontability"
I think this very wise, though Josh did not start this way, but it is wise never the less. Many people miss-understood Joshua's book "I kiss Dating Goodbye". He was not setting out a manual on relational stuff, but calling all of us single folk to pursue Holiness, godlyness and purity.
puritan belief: You said... "The heart of her husband safely trusts her"."A woman like this truly is a rare jewel who can find?"
I say a hearty, AMEN brother !!!
You said "In relation to talking to women about scripture I don't have a problem with this. For example what if they are not married and in this case they are under the headship of their Father well should you not talk to them? or what if their Father/Husband isn't a Christian? This I think is where the law creeps in and I would rather go the way of Grace especially when it comes to sharing about the one thing that matters rather then trying to legislate."
I say: I am not promoting legalism. I too, want to stay clear of legalism. In the example I gave, of the lady from my church, her husband is a christian.
I just thought it would be wiser, after the fact; if I had told her to go ask her husband. Now if she had asked me "what is the best way to clean windows?", since I own a window cleaning business, I would not of said go ask your husband. I do want business. And this is not an issue dealing with leadership. She also wanted to know does "covenant theology" have any practical implications to her children. Again a question dealing with the home and leadership.
You said "Where do you guys and girls stand on head coverings as in Corinthians?"
I say that deals more with being under authority, rather than actual wearing hats. The historical context is that the shrine temple prostitutes or a feminist would have their heads shaved, and Paul did not want the women of the church to be identified with the prostitutes and feminists. While in the Corinth culture a womens head covered was a symbol to signify a subordinate relationship to her husband.
I hope this helps.
God bless you my brother
In Christ's name.
Beth: Thank you for posting a comment. Sorry it took so long for me to respond back. I am glad you just "happened" to come across my blog. Your welcome here anytime. I am happy for you, that you found freedom in Christ. It is great you found a reformed church, and also not a legalistic church. May God continue to bless you, in the freedom found only in Christ.
In Christ
Daniel
no_average_girl: Thanks for the compliments. And for posting comments.
I am sorry to hear about this church, and what is happening there. It is very sad to hear about this couple, and the dissolving of this family. And the worst part is, that this is not uncommon. I hear that even among professing Christians that the divorce rate is 50%.
I am not sure you have heard that the first question of the "Westminster Shorter Catechism", is "what is the chief end of man?" Answer "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever." I ask what is the chief end of marriage? Answer the same "to glorify God, and to enjoy Him."
Have you ever heard anyone wanting to get a divorce, that at the same time this was their hearts desire, namely to glorify God. When we make our chief aim, our soul desire to glorify God, then all our sin is eradicated as well.
I do plan on making a comment on your blog. I checked out the question, it is a very good question. May God help you to glorify Him in all things.
Soli Deo Gloria
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